Comments for Rogue Awareness

Comment on Oregon Whitewater Association Position by JOEL

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Comment on Rogue River Camping Letter 2010 by JAMIE

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Comment on Run, Rogue, Run by Zachary Collier

Zachary Collier — Tue, 30 Dec 2008 03:59:25 +0000

Yes, those would also be solutions to the campsite problems. A couple things I should point out:

- The total private allocation is 72 for some days. And commercial allocation is 70 (not including guides) on other days.
- There is more private use than commercial use on the Rogue River.
- This shouldn’t be a private vs commercial issue.

Private groups are able to create starts on any given day if there is room in the common pool. Commercial groups are not allowed to do this. If the commercial outfitters wanted to take this to your level, they would petition to be able to create starts on any day. Or only allow private groups start trips only on days they have a lottery permit for (like all other permitted rivers).

The current permit system is in place to maximize the use by both private boaters and commercial outfitters. Reduction of use (by both commercial and private) is a very good solution to the problem. I doubt the BLM would support a plan that reduces use since they depend on the income generated by people going down the river.

I’d personally support a plan that reduces use by both commercial private users. Maybe cap commercial at 60 per day and only allow privates to go on dates they win in the lottery? I brought this idea up to both the NWRA board and the OWA general membership and both groups didn’t like the idea.

Comment on Run, Rogue, Run by Larry

Larry — Thu, 25 Dec 2008 07:22:04 +0000

It seems to me that there is a problem with too many large groups. I think I will propose that the BLM reduce the maximum group size to 15. Additionally I think it is time for the BLM to reduce use to 60 privates and 60 commercials, which should include guides. The BLM has been allowing up to 70 commercials a day plus guides in the summer months. There is no legal basis for them to exceed an allocation of 60 per day. I guess it is time to call them on this issue.

And, yes the group size can be changed if they open the campsite congestion issue to a public process. It is just as legitimate as your proposal to reserve campsites. If they open a public process on campsite congestion you can bet that reducing group size will be on the table.

Comment on Rogue Outhouses by Zachary Collier

Zachary Collier — Sat, 20 Dec 2008 22:29:33 +0000

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Comment on Rogue Outhouses by Bruce Wray

Bruce Wray — Sat, 20 Dec 2008 19:07:20 +0000

I think that BLM/USFS would be wise to push the use of PETT toilets, especially for smaller groups. Obviously, they aren’t as hassle free as outhouse use, but they are a lot simpler to carry and use than a groover. The wag bags cost a bit, but the simple throw-in-the-trash clean up at take out makes them worth it. If privacy screens were set at many medium/small sites, like the one last year at Lower Kelsey, that would further encourage their use. I usually run with groups of 4-8, and PETT toilets are all we use any more.

Bruce Wray

Comment on Run, Rogue, Run by Zachary Collier

Zachary Collier — Fri, 19 Dec 2008 22:33:19 +0000

Noah,

Nobody has bridged the idea of reducing allowed group size. I can see how that could a solution to the problem.

I’m trying to find a solution within the current permitting system. Any changes to the system would be very difficult to make.

Comment on Some Ideas – 11/13/08 by Zachary Collier

Zachary Collier — Wed, 17 Dec 2008 00:57:03 +0000

Bruce,

Thanks for your comments. I spoke with the NWRA board and they suggested that adding camps and permanent outhouses as a solution. We took that to the BLM meeting last month and they were pretty clear that they couldn’t add any new camps or outhouses.

As I understand it, they (or we) can’t go in with picks or shovels to expand or make new camps. I’ll send the BLM an email and ask to be sure.

I agree with you that the camps are shifting and that there are fewer good camps. PETT toilets are also great for getting groups to camp at the smaller and medium sized camps that don’t have the outhouses. The BLM told us that 4 major outhouses (I forget which) will be removed over the next 2 years. That may help too!

Comment on Some Ideas – 11/13/08 by Bruce Wray

Bruce Wray — Tue, 16 Dec 2008 01:01:17 +0000

Over the past several months I’ve read all the ideas and comments posted on this site. Quite a few good points have been made, but I have come to think a different approach might yield more satisfactory results. The necessary starting point is an accurate definition of the problem, which I don’t think has yet been set forth. Over the last 20+ years that I’ve been boating the Rogue, I’ve seen a large number of campsites go away. A few examples: Zane Grey and Gleason Bar are all but gone; Wildcat, Missouri Creek, Solitude and the Tate Creek sites are shadows of what they once were; all along the river many useable sandbars have disappeared. Other experienced boaters could no doubt expand at length on this list. To my mind, a more accurate definition of the problem is that the number and quality of places to camp have shrunk considerably. All the sand that used flow downriver yearly to make good camping places is parked behind the dams upriver. Issues that others have described as problems can more correctly be seen as symptoms of the underlying real problem: there aren’t as many places to camp, large, medium and small, as there used to be.
Many writers before me have commented on Options A through E, pointing out the shotrcomings, pitfalls, complexities and new issues that could arise from any reservation or group size limitation system. If there were more and better sites, I believe the majority of the symptoms that led to the rise of this forum would largely disappear. I realize that this means dealing with both BLM and The USFS, and all too often when they aren’t hidebound they are budget bound. I’d propose that stakeholders who have personal relationships with BLM and USFS personnel who supervise the river contact them to explain this idea. If people inside the bureaucracy can be brought on board, the battle is more than half over.
Last year BLM finally issued a great campsites map, the first update since 2002. That was a start. I think that a campsite improvement program is the next logical step. I usually boat with a small group (4-8), and a number of times we’ve “made” a site: pulling up alfalfa, rolling rocks, leveling a tent pads with an oar or paddle, etc. Here’s my rough idea on how I think this could work: BLM/USFS surveys the river (early May?) to determine spots to improve, large medium and small, using no more than shovels, picks, rakes, and limbing saws.. Then (mid May?), previously organized volunteer trips under BLM/USFS employee direction improve specific stretches on the river. I think contacting western rafting organizations for volunteers would be very successful. I’d be happy to participate if they’d buy the food for a 4-5 day trip. As soon as the trips are done, an updated detailed campsites map is prepared for distribution to the boating public, and BLM at Rand strongly promotes use of the upgraded sites and appropriate site selection for group size, like they did with the ‘08 map.
I like this approach because it’s simple. Previous writers showed how any reservation/group size system is inherently complex. If the program focused on small and medium site improvement, there would be much less impetus for smaller groups to claim larger sites. All most boaters want is a nice place to camp without having to rush downriver to get a spot. Further, I think PETT toilets have made campsites with outhouses much less of a priority; I’d like to see all outhouses go.
Well, for better or worse, there’s my two cents on this issue.

Bruce Wray